Here’s the premise of the conversation.
Previously in the conversation: I am not assured of what my brother will write when he answers a question, but I have an expectation that it will be worth my while reading it. When he tackles the matter of nature and the problem of certain environmental agendas, it’s the kind of analysis that’s brilliant. If I could I would set up a petition and campaign to encourage the brother to start a podcast when you see what he’d do it on – he should do podcasts anyway (Look out for the brief he gives about business that he retained – priceless). The best thing he writes in the last edition, however, is his journey to his current position when it comes to how he might best at present be defined as a classical theist. I am a Christian, I have no plans or desires or yearnings to be anything else and it does sadden me that my brother isn’t one – but I find his journey to his position thoroughly fascinating – definitely worth your reading as is the whole latest edition by brother – check it out by clicking here.
There were some questions of great fascination to tackle. Here goes:
Q – To come back on one of your questions, what is your insight and experience of “making disciples,” the real world and the actual delivery of that aspect of the Great Commission?
Responding to this question has required me to do more thinking than I initially thought I would. It required that because I want to be fair and honest in my response as well as being gracious and not overly critical or harsh either on myself or on others.
If I was to have a specialist subject for life to teach on and learn it would be about the Kingdom of God. An essential aspect of that is the call to make disciples. I applaud what you wrote about the concept of what it is to make disciples – very much the case of an apprenticeship. Developing apprentices of the way of the King. That’s what I read both in the great commission in Matthew 28, it’s what I see the gospels depict about Jesus’ relationship with His followers. It’s also what I get glimpses of in the apostolic journeys recorded in other New Testament texts.
My experience of that from my childhood onwards has had glimpses of this in action … but it’s not the norm. It’s not the norm at all. The norm has been more about having schools that indoctrinate individuals to certain mechanisms that lack the life in the Spirit and the life of Christ in action – which is what disciple-making should be all about.
The norm that I’ve observed and experienced has put the emphasis more on almost encouraging double-living. There are things that are done in gatherings once or twice a week and then there are your regular lives that are lived with little difference to your peers in the world just with a “nice” religious gloss. Some forms of that make a virtue of making you live as though you’re better than those peers and so you distance yourself from them. Others give you a little boost at the end of the week but don’t lead to any real change in how you engage with others during the week.
It’s not all bad, though. I have experienced snippets and glimpses of what it is to make disciples – teaching them to observe everything commanded by the Lord. They do include regular gatherings – although what happens in those gatherings is geared very differently from the norm. What they also include, however, is a commitment to the life on life sharing of what it means to follow Jesus and allow Him to influence every aspect of life. That life on life sharing – what it takes to make disciples if you will – include those challenging conversations where because life is open then so are the areas for correction and that’s not easy to take on especially when they reveal deep-rooted issues. Yet this kind of life-on-life manner of living gives room to see how God really does help us in our weaknesses and challenges. It’s the kind of vulnerable shaping of the life of Christ in us as we commit to the sort of community that takes disciple-making seriously. It’s also there that we see how pursuing the Kingdom really does see a difference in how we are with people and how we’re different in character and attitude but not in an overtly awkward, condescending or patronising manner. It’s also how we get to share the good news of the Kingdom with others and encourage them to consider it and make the response to it that leads to the disciple-making process.
I have been a part of the systems that play around with what it is to make disciples and not take it seriously, not realise the very cost that Jesus outlined about what it is to follow Him. I have been a part of those systems and been an active contributor to them because it’s far easier doing activities that have been laid out for you by others to conform to a pattern of life that’s never been challenged or explored, but accepted and allowed to corrode people into folks with the form but without the power. It’s easier to do that. You know what to do, you know how to do it and you know when to do it and you’ll be applauded for doing it well – maintaining a status quo that does not refer to the life that it purports to be centred on. I’m not saying it’s easy – I know people have worked themselves to exhaustion and worse. I am saying it’s easier to do that than to look at what disciple-making is in the light of Scripture and how that should be applied today and be obedient to that. I am endeavouring by the grace of God to pursue that which is not the easier path.
Q – Normally speaking, the execution of an innocent person is injustice. But in your worldview, it was and is a necessity, that being the death of Jesus. What is your approach to this idea and how do you reconcile it? Do you think you need to reconcile it? Why or why not?
It’s probably important to engage with the second part of your question first to see if there’s a basis to address the first part of your question.
The execution of an innocent person is injustice. The execution of Jesus was that of an innocent person and therefore it was an injustice. Yet it’s at the core of the faith I hold and in that contention, there is the idea that the execution of the innocent was something that God planned for the redemption of humanity. Yet this is the same God who established the standard that the execution of the innocent is injustice. Is God contradicting Himself? Does God have to explain Himself here?
I have not had any tension about this. I don’t have any tension about it. There was a problem that man’s rebellion against God put a barrier preventing right relations. God had the resolution to the problem in His son taking the sin. It is a unique and distinct resolution of the problem. Nothing in that resolution condones the ongoing injustice of executing the innocent.
This unique resolution to the problem of eternal consequences gives more reason for gratitude to God for doing what I couldn’t do to resolve the problem. It’s a bit like the sentiment that those who have been forgiven of much have more to be grateful about. Recognising what God did to forgive me for what I’ve done makes me very grateful and also makes me aware of how precious and righteous His standards are in the first place – standards that include the importance of righteous judgement when it comes to people.
Q – Were things better in the past? When people hold the view that the past was better, is that just a romantic view of the past or do you see valid reasons to hold that view? Are things getting worse or is it just more of the same? Explain your views on this.
I recently read Acts 2 where Peter delivers the gospel in the light of the much-celebrated outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. At the end of his speech, the crowd asks him what they should do in the light of what he’s outlined and his response is to repent, believe, be baptised and receive the promised Holy Spirit and the writer of Acts pops on at the end of it that he encourages the listeners to save themselves from that crooked/corrupt generation. That was a message delivered to a group of people over 2000 years ago. People today often refer to those days as though they were the golden days of the church.
A couple of decades ago when I was somewhat active and at least physically present in the particular church context in which I grew up, I recall many an older saint referring to how things were better in the decades gone by. How the Spirit of God moved with power and how great the church was. This explicitly suggested that things had not changed for the better since then.
The idea of a “golden period” that people refer to implicitly infers that we’re not in such a golden era anymore. Some even suggest that it’s more a silver era, or a bronze era or worse than that.
Continuing with the Bible theme, there’s a much written by the apostles about in later times things will get worse and people with modern sensibilities read that as though the apostles were referring to this age. And implicitly believe that things were “better” then. My current reading of those warnings, however, is that those apostolic warnings are applicable to every generation of believers, but specifically written to that generation of readers to prepare them for things getting worse in their day. A reader in Ephesus wasn’t supposed to read the warning and then offer a prayer for someone in the next twenty centuries.
To a large degree when I hear people referring to things being better in the past I understand what they’re suggesting, but remind myself that it was still a corrupt generation back then. The crooked state might have expressed itself in different forms of perversity than today, but it was still corrupt. There are clear differences in attitudes to morals and the structure of the family, etc than in previous generations, but those generations had their own warped way of living that perverted what God planned. My belief is as well, that the longer you live and pay attention the more you’re aware of both how corrupt the world is but also how that corruption changes and influences people in different ways. That’s why you can make comments to suggest that things were “better” when you were younger.
What I find unhelpful about those calls to yesteryear, however, is that it’s not really instructive as to how to deal with the changes today. We clearly cannot revert back to what it was in yesteryear and we would only be swapping one form of insidious and corrosive living – the same one that led to what we currently experience – for another that we felt more comfortable with.
Rather than those rose-tinted perspectives on yesteryear, I want to go to the source of Life and understand how to live today in the righteous way that expresses the timeless and timely truths of love, humility, meekness, mercy, purity, peace and justice under the rule of God. That doesn’t ditch the past – we clearly have much to learn from it – it’s just appreciating that wisdom available is to make the most of today and leave something that encourages folks to come to do whatever they can to save themselves from their corrupt generation.
Another set of questions to tax me on me thinking. Many thanks for that, bro.
Here are some questions for you:
Q – We don’t need to know what’s going on in different countries of the world. What do you think about this statement and what are your thoughts on the influence of globalisation?
Q – Teaching is essential for the development of the individual and communities and communities lack them. What do you think about that statement and what do you think qualifies someone to be an effective teacher when it comes to teaching others about wise ways to live?
Q – What are the foundations for a flourishing family – what is your view of what makes a flourishing family?
It is a great pleasure to do conversing business with you here, Hesediah. Thanks for your time.
For His Name’s Sake
Shalom
C. L. J. Dryden
Life With CD 